DIY split: Highlife UL vs K2 Ultra Dream (board tech Q's)

[JP Felipe]

So going to be doing a DIY split as I don't seem to feel the "This is the board for me" when it comes to production splits.

Two boards in question are the Highlife UL and the K2 Ultra Dream. I know both boards are completely different as the Highlife is more a hard charging all mountain board vs the K2 being more a pow deck. I know there's pics floating around of a production Ultra split, and was confirmed to me by the rep here in BC that it will be out for 2014, just don't really want to wait a year.

What I'm worried about is board tech on the Highlife UL. I know the Ultra Dream has the WH4 core which has honeykomb placed throughout, but it's only on the bottom layer of the board - it's still a wood core edge to edge. I'm comfortable enough working with this. What I'm worried about is the silencer(foam) stringers if they are full thickness or just on the bottom or top layer of the Highlife's core? Will these be able to hold a heli-coil? Been out of the bizz for a while but if I remember right silencer was urethane? But current Highlife video description says foam? (I'd feel way more comfortable heli-coiling urethane). Also not too worried about losing carbon array...

Was a shop tech for 8 years when I was younger, so I'm completely comfortable working with boards. Already have a company to do the waterjet cut and I plan to do this with edges(still undecided on tip-to-tail edges or contact point to contact point), and going a heli-coil route vs t-nut. If all works out, I promise this will be the cleanest DIY split done!

ps. I did see the slack split thread!

TIA, will definitely post updates whenever this gets done.

[Mr_Tidbit]

K2 does have a production Panoramic split for this season.

http://k2snowboarding.com/snowboards...plitboard-1213

Splitting a Highlife UL doesn't seem like a great idea as you'll render the carbon array pretty much useless according to the engineers at Ride.

[JP Felipe]

Panoramic is nice, but if I'm gonna go for a pow board I'd rather have the BC shaping of the Ultra Dream. If i go production split, I don't want to think to myself next year... "I should have waited".

As mentioned, I don't mind losing the carbon array. It's not something I lose/gain vs production splits. Unless you think Ride designed it so that majority of edge to edge response and torsional stiffness comes solely from the carbon array(which I kinda find hard to believe - core plays a bigger factor there imo).

[JP Felipe]

Anybody? Silencer material and whether or not its full thickness? Tried emailing tech support, still haven't heard anything.

Cheers

[DrnknZag]

IMO, I wouldn't cut a UL board or anything that has a carbon array running the width of the board. I'd imagine you'd lose a ton of edge to edge response and make the board pretty sloppy. I cut my first generation Slackcountry (non-UL, no carbon array) and even so it's lost a bit of stiffness, but overall not bad. I don't know much about the construction of the Ultra Dream, but I was told by one of K2's reps to keep my eyes open for an Ultra Dream factory split sometime in the future. In fact, there's been a few "spy" shots of the UD split with a funky experimental Burton-like channel for binding pucks.



If you really want an Ultra Split, hang on for a bit and it sounds like you'll get one. I'm pretty sure it'll be high up on my want list for my first factory split when it comes out.....

[JP Felipe]

Thanks, already knew about the Ultra Split and the photos on splitboard.com. Also was confirmed by the K2 rep here in BC last week that there will be a 2014 Ultra Dream Split.

As mentioned, I'm not so much worried about the carbon array as I am with the UL core. It's not fair to compare carbon array thats split to a solid board - you need to compare it to other split boards. In which case, no production split has any sort of similar technology. Hence, you're not really losing anything by splitting it. This is my reasoning to be willing to sacrifice splitting carbon array or any other sort of similar tech. So I've accepted losing some torsional stiffness. IMO it will still suit me better than most split boards currently out there.

ps. Finally got an email back from technical support from Ride saying the silencer material is urethane.

We'll see what I decide in the next few weeks or month as I'm also just considering picking up a Jones solution split. But I'll keep this updated as well as post on splitboard.com if I decide to go the DIY route.

[Mr_Tidbit]

IMO, I wouldn't cut a UL board or anything that has a carbon array running the width of the board. I'd imagine you'd lose a ton of edge to edge response and make the board pretty sloppy. I cut my first generation Slackcountry (non-UL, no carbon array) and even so it's lost a bit of stiffness, but overall not bad.



If you really want an Ultra Split, hang on for a bit and it sounds like you'll get one. I'm pretty sure it'll be high up on my want list for my first factory split when it comes out.....

First gen Slackcountry wasn't UL, but it does have linear carbon and Carbon Array 7 with the dampening material between.

[BuckWild]

I'm begging Paul our board design engineer to post on this thread. I'm curious about the UL core too. So your main issue is if the UL core having foam stringers will hold a helicoil... I'm wondering if they are urethane impregnated or not too.

Side question, I thought Helicoils were for stripped threads on say a sparkplug hole. How do you use these in a snowboard? Do you mean T-Nut?

[Mr_Tidbit]

I'm begging Paul our board design engineer to post on this thread. I'm curious about the UL core too.

A lot of the responses I've made on RideNation about splitting ride boards are from responses I've received from Paul.

[Flat4]

Yo – this is Paul (Board Engineer Joe just referred to) …To answer the original post question – the silencer on the Highlife UL is a closed cell urethane based foam w/additional urethane skin inserts around the carbon array area.

The foam stringers DO run tip to tail in a separated linear tip to tail pattern that is symmetrical. The stringers range from 5’’ long to 9.5’’ long and are all 0.500’’ wide and are placed to minimize any stress risers and always allow load initiation and dissipation as needed within the board to not sacrifice durability while maximizing weight efficiencies.

The foam stringers do run from top of wood core to bottom of wood core and are treated as a sub assembly with the wood core once pre-assembled – this means the fiberglass layers that wrap top and bottom of core, the carbon laminates – carbon array, linear carbon, pop glass etc. all are uninterrupted, the foam does not impact any other laminate layer except the wood core.

So plusses and minuses – Plusses: the foam is closed cell so relatively less porous than the wood it replaces but the foam, like wood – will take on moisture if you soak it – but if your cutting through it and drilling into it you should be no worse off than cutting and exposing wood.

Minuses - What I would be concerned with is blowing a UL stringer out in the center section once cut – I can’t go into exact placement of the stringers as its made in house in our own factory so I don’t want to sell the farm publically BUT I can say as before 5’’ to 9.5’’ in length 0.500’’ wide strategically placed tip to tail symmetrically around centerline (some older catalogs had some decent renderings of some of the layouts we have used to give you an idea, I don’t have the old catalogs with me right now)… but if you drew center line from tip to tail the stringers are placed symmetrically around that center line. The foam stringers that straddle the centerline closest are a shade under 0.500’’ apart from each other – so about 0.250’’ either side of the center line… if you consider losing maybe 0.100’’ in kerf thickness when you cut the deck that leaves you with 0.200’’ solid wood either side of center split cut before you hit any given silencer foam stringer = should be FINE, should be no overtly exposed foam… but if your cutting crooked even a tiny bit – even with a water jet - by the time you get to the other end of the 158cm deck you might be down to some pretty thin wood or worse yet exposing a stringer… again the silencer foam is no more porous than the wood it replaced BUT the stringers are only 0.500’’ wide if you cut crooked into a stringer or if the wood is so thin that it over stresses and blows out exposing a stringer then what was previously an internal island of foam is now holding on for dear life purely on 3 sides and top/btm glass where as previously it was internally dropped into the core slot… this floating stringer in the center cut worries me. Couple that with skinning mode all the weight in the center and I’d be having nightmares about blowing a stringer in the center in skinning mode and snapping the deck clean in 2 shortly thereafter.

Again not saying you can’t – people have done it and had no issues, but if I had a UL deck and an non UL deck gathering dust in my garage I’d be chopping the non UL deck.

p.s. re Carbon Array – if you cut it yes you lose it but it’ll be no worse than a deck without carbon array – stick with decks with what we call HYBRID GLASS in my opinion – these have a composite layup of at least one layer of TRIAX glass – so after cutting your going to get some torsional benefit in the new splt vs a stock BIAX deck that’s split – so IMO I’d be more focused on splitting a HYBRID GLASS board ( = has TRIAX GLASS) and less worried about Carbon Array being a plus or minus – the CA is a non event once you split it… you may get some incremental benefit back once your foots bolted back down in SB mode to the Carbon Array but I’d assume you’re getting a split board not a torsionally responsive carbon array deck out of the mix once you cut – but sticking with a board with some TRIAX glass would seem like a good call… all that said its clearly going to be a different deck once you chop it so assume some inherent re-learn curve is going to be a must once you bolt it back together and ride it as a SB.

p.p.s. Again I wouldn’t split a UL board but that’s just me – none of our, or anyone’s non split boards really are designed for this kind of post manufacturing modification – so clearly it could all go wrong fast in garage or on snow so I can’t endorse it, but which ever board you choose…. good luck! 

[Mr_Tidbit]

Yo – this is Paul (Board Engineer Joe just referred to) …To answer the original post question – the silencer on the Highlife UL is a closed cell urethane based foam w/additional urethane skin inserts around the carbon array area.

The foam stringers DO run tip to tail in a separated linear tip to tail pattern that is symmetrical. The stringers range from 5’’ long to 9.5’’ long and are all 0.500’’ wide and are placed to minimize any stress risers and always allow load initiation and dissipation as needed within the board to not sacrifice durability while maximizing weight efficiencies.

The foam stringers do run from top of wood core to bottom of wood core and are treated as a sub assembly with the wood core once pre-assembled – this means the fiberglass layers that wrap top and bottom of core, the carbon laminates – carbon array, linear carbon, pop glass etc. all are uninterrupted, the foam does not impact any other laminate layer except the wood core.

So plusses and minuses – Plusses: the foam is closed cell so relatively less porous than the wood it replaces but the foam, like wood – will take on moisture if you soak it – but if your cutting through it and drilling into it you should be no worse off than cutting and exposing wood.

Minuses - What I would be concerned with is blowing a UL stringer out in the center section once cut – I can’t go into exact placement of the stringers as its made in house in our own factory so I don’t want to sell the farm publically BUT I can say as before 5’’ to 9.5’’ in length 0.500’’ wide strategically placed tip to tail symmetrically around centerline (some older catalogs had some decent renderings of some of the layouts we have used to give you an idea, I don’t have the old catalogs with me right now)… but if you drew center line from tip to tail the stringers are placed symmetrically around that center line. The foam stringers that straddle the centerline closest are a shade under 0.500’’ apart from each other – so about 0.250’’ either side of the center line… if you consider losing maybe 0.100’’ in kerf thickness when you cut the deck that leaves you with 0.200’’ solid wood either side of center split cut before you hit any given silencer foam stringer = should be FINE, should be no overtly exposed foam… but if your cutting crooked even a tiny bit – even with a water jet - by the time you get to the other end of the 158cm deck you might be down to some pretty thin wood or worse yet exposing a stringer… again the silencer foam is no more porous than the wood it replaced BUT the stringers are only 0.500’’ wide if you cut crooked into a stringer or if the wood is so thin that it over stresses and blows out exposing a stringer then what was previously an internal island of foam is now holding on for dear life purely on 3 sides and top/btm glass where as previously it was internally dropped into the core slot… this floating stringer in the center cut worries me. Couple that with skinning mode all the weight in the center and I’d be having nightmares about blowing a stringer in the center in skinning mode and snapping the deck clean in 2 shortly thereafter.

Again not saying you can’t – people have done it and had no issues, but if I had a UL deck and an non UL deck gathering dust in my garage I’d be chopping the non UL deck.

p.s. re Carbon Array – if you cut it yes you lose it but it’ll be no worse than a deck without carbon array – stick with decks with what we call HYBRID GLASS in my opinion – these have a composite layup of at least one layer of TRIAX glass – so after cutting your going to get some torsional benefit in the new splt vs a stock BIAX deck that’s split – so IMO I’d be more focused on splitting a HYBRID GLASS board ( = has TRIAX GLASS) and less worried about Carbon Array being a plus or minus – the CA is a non event once you split it… you may get some incremental benefit back once your foots bolted back down in SB mode to the Carbon Array but I’d assume you’re getting a split board not a torsionally responsive carbon array deck out of the mix once you cut – but sticking with a board with some TRIAX glass would seem like a good call… all that said its clearly going to be a different deck once you chop it so assume some inherent re-learn curve is going to be a must once you bolt it back together and ride it as a SB.

p.p.s. Again I wouldn’t split a UL board but that’s just me – none of our, or anyone’s non split boards really are designed for this kind of post manufacturing modification – so clearly it could all go wrong fast in garage or on snow so I can’t endorse it, but which ever board you choose…. good luck! 

Wow... Probably the best post ever made on RideNation.

[BuckWild]

Save yourselves some time and brain power and just read this excerpt below. If you ARE splitting a UL deck after reading this section below, then read Paul's entire post.

Again not saying you can’t – people have done it and had no issues, but if I had a UL deck and an non UL deck gathering dust in my garage I’d be chopping the non UL deck.

p.s. re Carbon Array – if you cut it yes you lose it but it’ll be no worse than a deck without carbon array – stick with decks with what we call HYBRID GLASS in my opinion – these have a composite layup of at least one layer of TRIAX glass – so after cutting your going to get some torsional benefit in the new splt vs a stock BIAX deck that’s split – so IMO I’d be more focused on splitting a HYBRID GLASS board ( = has TRIAX GLASS) and less worried about Carbon Array being a plus or minus – the CA is a non event once you split it… you may get some incremental benefit back once your foots bolted back down in SB mode to the Carbon Array but I’d assume you’re getting a split board not a torsionally responsive carbon array deck out of the mix once you cut – but sticking with a board with some TRIAX glass would seem like a good call… all that said its clearly going to be a different deck once you chop it so assume some inherent re-learn curve is going to be a must once you bolt it back together and ride it as a SB.

p.p.s. Again I wouldn’t split a UL board but that’s just me – none of our, or anyone’s non split boards really are designed for this kind of post manufacturing modification – so clearly it could all go wrong fast in garage or on snow so I can’t endorse it, but which ever board you choose…. good luck! 

[JP Felipe]

Yo – this is Paul (Board Engineer Joe just referred to) …To answer the original post question – the silencer on the Highlife UL is a closed cell urethane based foam w/additional urethane skin inserts around the carbon array area.

The foam stringers DO run tip to tail in a separated linear tip to tail pattern that is symmetrical. The stringers range from 5’’ long to 9.5’’ long and are all 0.500’’ wide and are placed to minimize any stress risers and always allow load initiation and dissipation as needed within the board to not sacrifice durability while maximizing weight efficiencies.

The foam stringers do run from top of wood core to bottom of wood core and are treated as a sub assembly with the wood core once pre-assembled – this means the fiberglass layers that wrap top and bottom of core, the carbon laminates – carbon array, linear carbon, pop glass etc. all are uninterrupted, the foam does not impact any other laminate layer except the wood core.

So plusses and minuses – Plusses: the foam is closed cell so relatively less porous than the wood it replaces but the foam, like wood – will take on moisture if you soak it – but if your cutting through it and drilling into it you should be no worse off than cutting and exposing wood.

Minuses - What I would be concerned with is blowing a UL stringer out in the center section once cut – I can’t go into exact placement of the stringers as its made in house in our own factory so I don’t want to sell the farm publically BUT I can say as before 5’’ to 9.5’’ in length 0.500’’ wide strategically placed tip to tail symmetrically around centerline (some older catalogs had some decent renderings of some of the layouts we have used to give you an idea, I don’t have the old catalogs with me right now)… but if you drew center line from tip to tail the stringers are placed symmetrically around that center line. The foam stringers that straddle the centerline closest are a shade under 0.500’’ apart from each other – so about 0.250’’ either side of the center line… if you consider losing maybe 0.100’’ in kerf thickness when you cut the deck that leaves you with 0.200’’ solid wood either side of center split cut before you hit any given silencer foam stringer = should be FINE, should be no overtly exposed foam… but if your cutting crooked even a tiny bit – even with a water jet - by the time you get to the other end of the 158cm deck you might be down to some pretty thin wood or worse yet exposing a stringer… again the silencer foam is no more porous than the wood it replaced BUT the stringers are only 0.500’’ wide if you cut crooked into a stringer or if the wood is so thin that it over stresses and blows out exposing a stringer then what was previously an internal island of foam is now holding on for dear life purely on 3 sides and top/btm glass where as previously it was internally dropped into the core slot… this floating stringer in the center cut worries me. Couple that with skinning mode all the weight in the center and I’d be having nightmares about blowing a stringer in the center in skinning mode and snapping the deck clean in 2 shortly thereafter.

Again not saying you can’t – people have done it and had no issues, but if I had a UL deck and an non UL deck gathering dust in my garage I’d be chopping the non UL deck.

p.s. re Carbon Array – if you cut it yes you lose it but it’ll be no worse than a deck without carbon array – stick with decks with what we call HYBRID GLASS in my opinion – these have a composite layup of at least one layer of TRIAX glass – so after cutting your going to get some torsional benefit in the new splt vs a stock BIAX deck that’s split – so IMO I’d be more focused on splitting a HYBRID GLASS board ( = has TRIAX GLASS) and less worried about Carbon Array being a plus or minus – the CA is a non event once you split it… you may get some incremental benefit back once your foots bolted back down in SB mode to the Carbon Array but I’d assume you’re getting a split board not a torsionally responsive carbon array deck out of the mix once you cut – but sticking with a board with some TRIAX glass would seem like a good call… all that said its clearly going to be a different deck once you chop it so assume some inherent re-learn curve is going to be a must once you bolt it back together and ride it as a SB.

p.p.s. Again I wouldn’t split a UL board but that’s just me – none of our, or anyone’s non split boards really are designed for this kind of post manufacturing modification – so clearly it could all go wrong fast in garage or on snow so I can’t endorse it, but which ever board you choose…. good luck! 

Thanks Paul, you pretty much confirmed everything I was mentioning about cutting carbon array. I was also thinking about how you might gain some of it back when splitting in ride mode - using the binding as kind of a bridge between the two halves of carbon array. Again, not fair to compare to a solid board, so not expecting to gain any of it back. Also took into consideration fiberglass layout, most boards with biax layout tend to be torsionally soft, so I wouldn't opt to cut one. That being said the pop glass with the 90 degree weaved carbon fiber in the Highlife might be highly beneficial for torsional response after splitting.

I remember the renderings in the catalogs in the past, so I am familiar with the layout and you did bring up one of my concerns for splitting down the middle. I'm already prepared to build my own sort of sidewall on the inner edge of the split if it comes down to it.

I'm begging Paul our board design engineer to post on this thread. I'm curious about the UL core too. So your main issue is if the UL core having foam stringers will hold a helicoil... I'm wondering if they are urethane impregnated or not too.

Side question, I thought Helicoils were for stripped threads on say a sparkplug hole. How do you use these in a snowboard? Do you mean T-Nut?

Helicoils are also used in skis that have stripped binding holes. These hold hell of a lot better than traditionally mounting ski bindings. Reason for going this route vs a t-nut is simply because you won't have to drill through the base - so you get a cleaner factory look. A bit harder to get done right, but in my 8 years of working as a ski/snowboard shop tech I've never seen a helicoil blow out, including wood-foam hybrid cores - granted ski cores are a bit thicker so lets not get too far into comparing apples to oranges.

[JP Felipe]

actually x'nay on the pop glass comment... looking at the slackcountry the weaved carbon i see through the topsheet are tip to tail so I'm assuming this is the 90 degree weaved carbon in the pop glass? correct me if I'm wrong, was originally thinking 90 degrees meant edge to edge.


just linking for shits n giggles.. somebody just did a berzerker split! http://splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14425

[JP Felipe]

this forum gets the sneak peak...





Here's a quick glimpse of the helicoil'd inserts. Did NOT have to drill through the base. I'll be posting up a full write up and helicoil how-to on splitboard.com when I get back from my holiday vacation next week. Overall pretty impressed with the work I did considering it's been about 5 years since I've done any serious ski/board repairs.




ps. Happy New Years Ride Nation!